In response to Poxinfinite asserting that the creation stories of the Bible/Quran could be right...
They are as absurd as the creation myths in any religion/culture be they the Abrahamic 'creation ex nihilo', the vast range of Hindu myths (who according to Wikipedia don't seem to have much conflict with evolution), or the Inuit belief that the trickster in the form of Raven created the world (when the waters forced the ground up from the deep Raven stabbed it with his beak and fixed it into place).
I prefer the outlook of the Buddha who generally ignores the question regarding the origin of life.
No intelligent person could take them seriously.
These myths have been lampooned and had the nail put in their coffin by the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster...
This is the 'ironic' statement from their website:
The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, while having existed in secrecy for hundreds of years, only recently came into the mainstream when this letter was published in May 2005.
With millions, if not thousands, of devout worshippers, the Church of the FSM is widely considered a legitimate religion, even by it’s opponents - mostly fundamentalist Christians, who have accepted that our God has larger balls than theirs.
Some claim that the church is purely a thought experiment, satire, illustrating that Intelligent Design is not science, but rather a pseudoscience manufactured by Christians to push Creationism into public schools. These people are mistaken. The Church of FSM is real, totally legit, and backed by hard science. Anything that comes across as humor or satire is purely coincidental.
http://www.venganza.org/about/
God exists, therefore there was creation. Even if you don't accept the moment of God, you must at the very least accept the moment of creation.
ReplyDeleteAlthough we cannot prove the exact nature of this creation, nor can science. But to argue we haven't been created? That flies in the face of both science and religion. We most certainly were created by a causal intelligent force, or by sheer coincidence.
Buddha can ignore the question, but it doesn't make the fact go away.
In an environment in which proof of creation and the force behind it is not forthcoming, one can quickly dismiss those things which can be disproven, or which do not speak to the human psyche.
Study the facts of life, the essential condition of our human expereince and you'll find that belief in God leads to a better more satisfied life.
I applaud the Inuit for recognizing a creator and enlivening their lives whether you can understand the essential nature of their myth or not (which is that they didn't create it).
Your ridicule, and your embracing of a spoof, show your own incapacity to provide an alernative that expresses either science (which has a variety of ideas), or the human condition.
What a load of shit!
ReplyDeleteOf course I embrace the science...but that doesn't imply a creator.
Your absolutism is laughable.
I quote Sir Iqbal Saccranie: "...if people wish to love a C7th preacher [multi-armed elephant God, dead carpenter, spaghetti monster etc.] more than their own families, that's up to them, but nobody else is supposed to take it seriously..."
Oh by the way...How was 'God' created???
I have to agree, what a load of shit. How do believers have a more satisfied life? At the end of the day, the entire argument comes down to faith. Faith in stories or faith in fact. Unfortunately, we still do not know all the facts but as for the stories, we've heard them all before.
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ReplyDeleteThe nature of God is that God is not created. That is why we have such a hard time with the concept. It is similar to the infinit which has no beginning and no end, and which we cannot actually comprehend.
ReplyDeleteOur human bodies and minds are programmed to see cause behind everything. So just asking the question how was God created is hitting that brick wall. We accept the infinit because it is necessary (it's integral to all science and math even though we can't comprehend it... we use it) and the same faith is required for God.
In terms of absolute facts, people who believe in God live happier healthier lives, and belief is something integral to our psychological makeup. So whether it be a two legged donkey that likes to eat birds or something more refined, it is part of the human condition. I can show you a book called six impossible things before breakfast that is written by someone who wants to get rid of God- he still states it's better for your health and happiness to believe.
The only real question is not, does god exist and was this universe created. It is, what is the nature of God, how can I understand that nature, and how can I believe something that will free me from the conditioning of this place rather than trapping me.
Poxinfinite, listen to yourself. The nature of God is that God is not created? How convenient is that?
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, I don't have the luxury of blind faith to allow me to accept such mumbo jumbo.
Your example of the infinite does not serve to prove this either given we do not worship the infinite or kill in it's name. God is a unique concept that pushes people to do inexplicable things so using examples of other things we accept yet do not understand serves absolutely no purpose.
Just because you say people who believe in God live happier lives does not mean it's true. Where's your proof? Where's the studies to back this up? Or is this just another example where blind faith is required in order to understand your argument? (Also, I doubt the author of the book you quoted wanted you to summise from his statemnet that you should believe in God)
My experience only points to the opposite. The only way I am going to accept that religous people are happier is if you say they are less educated and have lower IQ's.
This would make more sense to me given ignorance is bliss.
How anyone with a high IQ and access to a good education can accept these far-fetched, un-proven notions is beyond me.
You are right however in saying our minds try to make sense of the world around us. This is natural.
What's un-natural is to accept something without asking questions and it is this that religion asks us to do...not forgetting to donate some cash while we're at it.
The question is not what is the nature of God, it may be for you as you have already taken that massive leap.
For me it's still does God exist and as yet no book, person or event has even come close to dealing with this adequately.
poxinfinite...I've slightly modified your quote - can you still agree?
ReplyDelete"The nature of the Universe is that the Universe is not created. That is why we have such a hard time with the concept. It is similar to the infinity which has no beginning and no end, and which we cannot actually comprehend.
Our human bodies and minds are programmed to see cause behind everything. So just asking the question how was the Universe created is hitting that brick wall. We accept the infinity because it is necessary (it's integral to all science and math even though we can't comprehend it... we use it) and the same acceptance is required for the Universe."
As for your "god-botherers are happier" nonsense...well thats clearly just absurd - doesnt deserve a response.
You know I don't mind the modification of the quote. I just don't see it as complete, but I do recognize it as a subset of truth.
ReplyDeleteAs for happier god conscious people. It's backed up by studies and you can borrow the book "six impossible things before breakfast" and look it up for yourself.
The end of the book was an acceptance that people will believe, although a call for them to believe in science rather than God. I just don't see that science is any more perfect. And don't give me the bollocks about causing death and war etc. People always find reasons... and if they actually obeyed the religious commands they couldn't go to war at all!!! so why do they find excuses?
You think Iraq, British Empire, Roman Empire, or Hitler and Stalin were about God? You're crazy. The greatest evil is human greed and desire for control, enjoyment, and ownership, all the things that every religion tries to speak out against. Just because humans twist it to their own end is an argument against humans not against God.
And Chairman, you say we don't worship the infinit, and yet that is one of the qualities of God which is woshipable. Don't confuse ritual and superstition with a belief in God.
And the reason why we have an inherent need for beliefs, why we have sentience, love, and intellect, as well as self control and faith is because these are the tools that allow us to find God. Otherwise we would just exist, fuck, and die... which is how most people live their lives anyways, with or without IQ's.
Get over it.
We've gone away from the original topic - creation myths.
ReplyDeletePoxinfinte - Fuck the god-botheres are happier shit - that is just ridiculous (and I have read 6 impossible things...)
What is the difference with me accepting the infinite unknowability of the 'Universe' and you just calling that 'God'?
If you insist on the creation of the universe then you must accept the creation of God. Easier not to do either and be content with the acceptance of the infinite universe.
There seems to be a question mark over what is meant by the term "God". My use of the word does not relate to the universe, or an energy or something but a personal god who knows what you are thinking, doing etc and will punish you if you do wrong and reward if you do good. Does this change anyone's argument?
ReplyDeleteDoesnt change mine.
ReplyDeleteMy argument is the same for a personal or non-personal (deist) God. All that changes is that I am a little more incredulous and patronising towards the pure theists (like poxinfinite) who DO genuinely think that God is somewhere with a notebook taking notes of good/bad deeds etc!!!
Ok, looks like clarification time.
ReplyDeleteI believe in both an impersonal "infinite" universal brahman or non-personal form of god, and beyond that, a personal form of god... only the personal form of God is not the Abrahimic one.
This personal form of God is represented by the purest, most ideal, most perfect form of everything we know. So as a person He is also perfect, attractive, intelligent, and LOVE... but this is something that goes past the impersonal form of God.
For clarification as well, this God is not concerned with the nature of good and bad as we perceive it. Every action has a reaction, and all humans create the hell on earth that we know. With proper administration, this hell would not exist, because our actions would be good and so the bad would diminish. This is not a law of God, it is a law of the material world and the nature of our conflicting desires.
Watch the Bruce Almighty movie and you'll see what I mean... when we all have our desires, they conflict and actually damage others. So the secret is to diminish desires, recognize you are not the controller, enjoyer, possessor or lover, and the earths anquish will be eased... it's simple really. haha
oh, and that person that is God, He's got dibs on all those things. We are of the same quality as this personal God (same form, nature, etc) but not of his capacity (capacity meaning we can enjoy, possess, control, and love in small quantities and for short periods of time.)
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